Regarding tanks

[MmM 0]

I'll share my toughts on tanks in your version of the game . Firstly I think its awesome you guys are changing and adding skills so we can have better class balance. I'll talk mostly about DA since I have most knowledge about this tank class.

 

So everyone knows that tanks are the useless classes in interlude. Very few people will take a tank in their cp in this chronicle because people want fast level/fast gear - for which mage/archer/melee(destro) groups are standart. This changes a lot in chronicles like epilogue/h5 - there they are very good classes and you can even say OP, but why.

 

DA is really powerful pvp class if geared in interlude - 78-79 HK with sword, bow, mage acu wep and say tallum can destroy every other class in oly:

-fighter classes like gladiator, dagger, destros get a lot of dmg back with shield of revenge, also shield slam duration is really long

-wont even talk about archers(deflect arrow)

-shackle or hamstring a mage and its dead with the panther (if you change the target on you, so the panther stays alive)

- summoners are tricky, but if some shield stuns land you can deal with them

and so on.

 

Lets take a look at the skills you add:

- shield deflect magic - really strong skill for pvp vs mages

- shield strike - another pvp ability which is like Judgement/Tribunal

- add the skills on the panther - cancel, decrease dark resistance and the damage ability - which are mainly used in pvp/oly

- burning rage - I'm not sure about the effectiveness of this skill

- the active abilities from Vanguard - which take a lot of mana and are not reliable farming tools

So the point I'm making is you are making tanks stronger in oly(in which they already are really strong), but for the two more interesting aspects of the game - their pve and mass pvp potential - still the same and which is the real problem with the class.

 

So what makes the tanks strong in pve/mass pvp in latter chronicles-

1) banish seraph ability - its really bad in interlude (unlike epilogue+). If you reduce mana cost and increase land rate DA/SK will have a reliable farming tool in higher levels. Same with banish undead for pala/tk. Remove the 5 soul ore that it is needed.

2)The only useful skill in Vanguard is the buff - https://l2db.info/high-five/skills/956-Boost-Morale, which stays after you transform back.

3)Combat aura- strong buff for the whole party https://l2db.info/high-five/skills/982-Combat-Aura/2

4)DA shares buffs with panther

and so on - you can use your imagination.

 

So I suggest you to boost their pve/mass pvp/party usefulness instead of their oly pvp potential. Because as it is now, a bd or a sws can do everything that tanks can, but +dances/songs. There are plenty of ways to do this and I hope you will look into this for the x25.

[JohanM88 9]

I'll share my toughts on tanks in your version of the game . Firstly I think its awesome you guys are changing and adding skills so we can have better class balance. I'll talk mostly about DA since I have most knowledge about this tank class.

 

So everyone knows that tanks are the useless classes in interlude. Very few people will take a tank in their cp in this chronicle because people want fast level/fast gear - for which mage/archer/melee(destro) groups are standart. This changes a lot in chronicles like epilogue/h5 - there they are very good classes and you can even say OP, but why.

 

DA is really powerful pvp class if geared in interlude - 78-79 HK with sword, bow, mage acu wep and say tallum can destroy every other class in oly:

-fighter classes like gladiator, dagger, destros get a lot of dmg back with shield of revenge, also shield slam duration is really long

-wont even talk about archers(deflect arrow)

-shackle or hamstring a mage and its dead with the panther (if you change the target on you, so the panther stays alive)

- summoners are tricky, but if some shield stuns land you can deal with them

and so on.

 

Lets take a look at the skills you add:

- shield deflect magic - really strong skill for pvp vs mages

- shield strike - another pvp ability which is like Judgement/Tribunal

- add the skills on the panther - cancel, decrease dark resistance and the damage ability - which are mainly used in pvp/oly

- burning rage - I'm not sure about the effectiveness of this skill

- the active abilities from Vanguard - which take a lot of mana and are not reliable farming tools

So the point I'm making is you are making tanks stronger in oly(in which they already are really strong), but for the two more interesting aspects of the game - their pve and mass pvp potential - still the same and which is the real problem with the class.

 

So what makes the tanks strong in pve/mass pvp in latter chronicles-

1) banish seraph ability - its really bad in interlude (unlike epilogue+). If you reduce mana cost and increase land rate DA/SK will have a reliable farming tool in higher levels. Same with banish undead for pala/tk. Remove the 5 soul ore that it is needed.

2)The only useful skill in Vanguard is the buff - Boost Morale - Skill ID 956 / High Five [Lineage 2 DB], which stays after you transform back.

3)Combat aura- strong buff for the whole party Combat Aura Level 2 - Skill ID 982 / High Five [Lineage 2 DB]

4)DA shares buffs with panther

and so on - you can use your imagination.

 

So I suggest you to boost their pve/mass pvp/party usefulness instead of their oly pvp potential. Because as it is now, a bd or a sws can do everything that tanks can, but +dances/songs. There are plenty of ways to do this and I hope you will look into this for the x25.

 

It should be noted that all this I will say is thinking that all these skills are well set, as if it were the Official

 

tell that to dlm,

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnRKMMvamQg:367

 

 

the tank in interlude is not weak, just that you need some equipment and know how to use it (server retail), the tanks you will see very little in CP until the hellbound chronicle arrived, and came out with their "Shield of Faith" skill, ( something that seems ilogical to me that they have not put so far in the server, such an important skill for the tanks), and after GF with their skill of 83, but I can assure you that the tanks are not bad in interlude.

 

P.D. nobody wants a tank in a party (interlude), not because they are bad, but because they really do almost nothing (not all, those who know how to use it do it well and kill), it is preferable to put a "DD" in the party , a "DD" will always be better in a mass agitate than a tank, or rather it will have more advantage, but as I said everything depends on the skills you have with the character

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id=1Bu6WBu9ZlQ;list=PLD139FBEF149BE5F9

 

 

this is "HB" but it is practically "HB" is just as interlude only with changes of new skills and new areas, but in the ofi was practically play interlude with new skill

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKYt63rpC40:23

 

xlance was not as good as dlm but he still killed

 

 

It is true that "DLM" had equipment but that does not take away the fact that he knew how to play with the tank, xlance had the same equipment as "DLM", and DLM played a lot better than him!

 

NOW, here on a server that does not have the buff retail, it may be less influenced the tanks but I can not change that anymore, that's why I say in the retail servers is where you learn to play with your pj, not in server " fullbuff "

 

the boost morale, had already done the issues in the 7x

boost morale

 

which I am amused to read that they said that the skill is unbalanced, it is like saying that the tank in GF is unbalanced, if they are strong compared to interlude, but while the chronicles were advancing all the classes were more and more balanced, apart from seeing all the skills that placed the other profeciones as for example to the dagero, is totally illogical, the dagero is practically the dagero of GF, only they lacked to implement their skill of 83 HAHAHAH

[Destiny1 6]

U cant compare officals 1x that was 6-7-8 years ago with 25x now. Tanks are Only Good if they out gear thier opponent

[JohanM88 9]

U cant compare officals 1x that was 6-7-8 years ago with 25x now. Tanks are Only Good if they out gear thier opponent

 

if, as I said it is good to have a certain team, the difference is not that it is 25x, the difference is the way in which the skill and the buff are set, here open 2h of buff, and that distorts not only the tanks but also many prophecies,

 

I've always had the idea that when a server is played, its playability (pvp, pve), which is similar to the official!

[MmM 0]

Guys, the thread is not about if tanks are lackluster classes or not in interlude (they are obviously). It is about what skills or buffs they can recieve so they aren't anymore and are still balanced.

My point was that the buffs that eglobal adds to them are mainly focused on 1v1 pvp and tanks shouldn't be like that(even the offensive ones like DA and SK). This is not dota and

1) they cannot farm efficiently - can't aoe, cant even farm solo on par with other classes.

- thats why I suggest buffing banish seraph/undead so it becomes reliable and they can farm easily mos, toi and woa/undead regions

- boost morale and for DA - panther to share skills with the main char, BUT boost morale to be unusable in oly (there it becomes op thats why it was probably removed last time);

- the new skill you added - burning rage, make it damage only mobs, but with higher damage and not damage the char. Whats the point adding this to tanks like DA and SK when they dont have any form of healing mechanism (except the 1 prof heal). It is ok as it is not for Pala and TK. I can see it being viable to farm in aoe with ultimate defense;

 

2) they are useless in a 9 party setup

- add combat aura - this buff is amazing for pvp/pve

- add shield of faith

- make majesty a party buff

[Papanda 2472]

Hello guys,

 

Firts of all we are always greatfull to every suggestion that you offer to consider as a fix or just a changes.

We truly think that we can make Interlude more itneresting without "breaking" it.

 

Regarding the skills that you mention.

Let me share the logic of our thinkingway when we adding or changing something.

If we taking about skills (for example) we need to consider few things:

1. Does this change need someone \ hate by someone?

2. Is this change can be done technicaly (obliously :))

3. Will this change boost daily (pvp\pve)?

4. Will this change oly?

5. How does this change rely on solo players?

6. How does this change rely on organized groups?

6.1. Can it be use as abuse (box for top parties etc).

 

So let's take a look on few things that you suggest from the perspective of this very few factors (we, of course, consider much more):

Banish Seraph/Undead:

1. Yes, but not really big part of audience \ No;

2. Yes, not a problem at all;

3. No, not really. Oly with necromansers, but like I said - not realy;

4. PvE - yes, PvP - no;

5. Pretty much;

6. Not really;

6.1. There are couple of way where it could be abused.

Сonclusion: much more yes then no. Most likely it can\will be implemented.

 

 

Buff sharing with panther:

1. Yes, a lot of players would love the buff sharing system with pets\summons \ A lot will consider it as a OP;

2. Yes, it can be done;

3. 50\50, amount of tanks\summoners in daily is very week, so most likely no;

4. Yes, tanks\summoners became a killmachine;

5. It will help;

6. Most likely - wouldn't feel this change;

6.1 Most likely - yes.

Сonclusion: to risky to add such system, it can break balance (at least on oly, which is important).

Same thing for Combat Aura.

 

I think you understand the logic.

We will take a look and consider every aspect, but we beleive that tanks need some good daily ability, so they would be usefull in party.

 

Once again we will overlook and consider every changes that you've suggest and we thank you all for your suggestions.

 

 

PS: Thank you @JohanM88, for mentioning DLM! One of my favorite player and content\moviemaker. I enjoy ~hour of re-watching this movies <3

PPS: You've forgot about Aeze!

[MmM 0]

Rivals 2 rocks.

Thank you for looking into this and I hope you find a way for tanks to have better time in your server ^^.

[JohanM88 9]

 

PD: Gracias [uSER = 52713] JohanM88 [/ USER] , por mencionar DLM. Uno de mis jugadores y contenido favoritos \ moviemaker. Disfruto ~ hora de volver a ver estas películas <3

PPS: ¡te olvidaste de Aeze! [/ QUOTE]

 

"aeze" también era un tanque grande pero se vio muy poco en el interludio "servidor de bartz oficial", (o yo lo vi muy poco), siempre lo vi en c4 y c5 junto con dlm, la verdad es que en el mejor tanque para mi, eran dml y connan

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id=O_O_AKWSAPY;list=PL140CEA96819E8388

[JohanM88 9]

Hello guys,

 

 

PS: Thank you @JohanM88, for mentioning DLM! One of my favorite player and content\moviemaker. I enjoy ~hour of re-watching this movies <3

PPS: You've forgot about Aeze!

 

"aeze" was also a big tank but very little was seen in interlude "official bartz server", (or I very little saw it), I always saw it on c4 and c5 along with dlm, the truth that in interlude the best tank for my, they were dml and connan

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id=O_O_AKWSAPY;list=PL140CEA96819E8388

[Papanda 2472]

"aeze" was also a big tank but very little was seen in interlude "official bartz server", (or I very little saw it), I always saw it on c4 and c5 along with dlm, the truth that in interlude the best tank for my, they were dml and connan

Yes, dlm is probably one of the finest tank @ Interlude. However it fair to say that he was overboosted.

 

I've played on Teon since c4 and one of the funniest and strongest Shillein Templar there was Utug.

Unfortunitely I can't find his movies on Interlude (only 1T+), but he was good (as a players and as a person).

 

But this is the point, right? We can easily remember TH, Hawk, Wizards etc, but tanks are very rare, which means that this is the obvious problem that always were in Lineage 2.

[JohanM88 9]

yes, I have seen videos of utug in interlude, there were good tanks, also there was "buffalo" by erica, elf tank white, of course that is the point, what happens is that characters like tanks (interlude), have to have certain amount of items (Fb + db + ic or tallum H) and maybe an AQ, to be noticed, and obviously knowing how to play with them, is not such an easy character, but knowing how to use it with some items, you can be quite dangerous , is not the same as DD that have a notorious damage without having so many items, for that reason I lean more on the servers with retail buff, since that gives balance to the characters that are not DD, that's why every time the chronicle was progressing, the professions were leveled a bit more, that's why I had recommended when they opened the 7x that if they wanted a server interlude, with some new skills, they just had to place the "HB" chronicle and place lvl max 80, remove the HB zones and the new items and quest from that cronica , maybe eliminate the skills of the sub, and practically had an interlude with new skill professions, of course some skills could be modified a bit, but the truth that "HB" for me was a chronicle where it opened the gap to level much more the prophecies, I remember that the dwarves in "HB" hit quite hard, we had to respect the dwarves in pvp, and other professions like the tanks, only to make the modification of the "UD of party" and the "UD movable" started to be a more leveled and more loved chart, this is a topic of much to talk about but for me in "HB" an excellent chronicle where everything started to have much more balance of classes

 

this was "HB" but it's like I said, "HB" was practically interlude in the official, only with new skills and new areas, but at that time the official servers when it was "HB" the max lvl was 81 and was almost the same, the chronicle passed very quickly to (grace l), since "HB" lasted from 3 to 4 months on the official servers

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5B-DGPEuqE:586

 

 

P.S. to be honest I do not know why they have not placed "Shield of Faith" to the tank, it's a very important skill, when I saw this skill in the 7x "burning rage" was an LMAO for me, I do not know where they got that skill of warcraft 3? of the "demon hunter"? immolation was called a skill very similar but I'm wrong because I never saw it in the l2 hahahahah, I would change it without hesitation! :redlol::redlol::redlol:

 

[JohanM88 9]

Guys, the thread is not about if tanks are lackluster classes or not in interlude (they are obviously). It is about what skills or buffs they can recieve so they aren't anymore and are still balanced.

My point was that the buffs that eglobal adds to them are mainly focused on 1v1 pvp and tanks shouldn't be like that(even the offensive ones like DA and SK). This is not dota and

1) they cannot farm efficiently - can't aoe, cant even farm solo on par with other classes.

- thats why I suggest buffing banish seraph/undead so it becomes reliable and they can farm easily mos, toi and woa/undead regions

- boost morale and for DA - panther to share skills with the main char, BUT boost morale to be unusable in oly (there it becomes op thats why it was probably removed last time);

- the new skill you added - burning rage, make it damage only mobs, but with higher damage and not damage the char. Whats the point adding this to tanks like DA and SK when they dont have any form of healing mechanism (except the 1 prof heal). It is ok as it is not for Pala and TK. I can see it being viable to farm in aoe with ultimate defense;

 

2) they are useless in a 9 party setup

- add combat aura - this buff is amazing for pvp/pve

- add shield of faith

- make majesty a party buff

 

farm in a server pvp with a tank, I think you have to be a little crazy, when you want to farm in a server pvp farm with "magicians, poleros, and maybe destroyers),

 

morale boots, as I said it seemed super silly to remove it, for me they remove the vanguard transformation because that is useless

 

they have to add 100% "shield of faith" that is a paramount skill for them

 

combat aura does not seem ... is not because it is not useful ... but in my opinion are getting many skills from other chronicles and are distorting the chronicle ... because soon we will be playing practically a server "final grace" or " h5 ", and for me it is not the idea, rather there are several skills that should be removed from some professions in my opinion ...

 

and burning rage.... I do not know what to tell you about this skill, I can only laugh :redlol: and it's not that it's bad, but WTF? what is this hahahah :redlol::redlol:

 

P.S. I think if you see the tanks a bit, not like in "GF or h5", because of the "buff PVP" configuration, but well ... we can not do anything else =)

[MmM 0]

Any news ?

[Papanda 2472]

Any news ?

Hello @MmM,

 

I must be not clear enough in my post.

There is no way we can do the changes just before the start, which is pretty understandable, from my oppinion, because all our changes, fixes etc are implementing to the server as a one big (or not) update with bunch of other things.

So what I meant is that we are going to discuss and try to make tanks better at soonest update.

 

Besides, did you check the new classification S-Grade sets? From my oppinion Imperial Crusader [shiled Master] Set made a big enough impact to tanks classes balance to give the an opportunity to fight as a separate unit as well as daggers, mages or archers.